Curse

Shadow_Avenger · Jun 16, 2005, 08:41 AM // 08:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by hydrak

For those who are against spending a skill point for buying each SoC, 1 question for you: Are you against spending 1 skill point to buy a skilll from skill trainer?

If your answer is YES, then your problem is too deep to fix. If your answer is NO, then answer this next question: Why do you have a problem with spending 1 skill point to buy SoC to capture an elite skill?

Be to the point here. Don't make another post until you've answered my questions.

If you would open up your views, you would realise it is more than possible to run both, you simply cannot capture all skills using SoC there are not enough Boss type creatures to cover the entire skill base, so trainers would still be of use and an important part of the game.

Quote:

SoC's cost skill points because they are used to capture the Sweet..Sweet... Elite skills.

Not all Elite skills are so sweet, infact the majority are just good skills which have been limited to 1 only per mission. Just because you have a few elite skills doesn't make you any better than another player. Infact the only Elite Skill I have found that is actually Elite is the monk spell Mark of protection, basically gives invincibility for 10 seconds and all damage turns into healing. The rest are good skills nothing more.

Quote:

(Please note that i'm not stating it is bound to happen, or happen in such a way that would make the idea seem horrible. However, if you look at every bright side to making SOC's free, then you'd have to note every nook and cranny of the side-effects it may cause)

Good post, finally a genuine reply that wasn't just trying to be clever or padantic.

Phaedrus · Jun 16, 2005, 12:24 PM // 12:24

If you care to check (since we all love the guy who says "you aren't reading my posts") my point was way back up ^ there. Here's the digest version: Guild Wars wants you to play the game. Guild Wars will not abolish systems that encourage players to spend hours playing the game. They may streamline systems but they will not willingly introduce functionality that gets you from start to done in sixty seconds.

As you say, look at the patch notes. See how they've limited the ability to ascend to 20? See how they've limited farming? As you've admitted, PvE characters are potentially more powerful in PvP than PvP characters. So tell me, why would Guild Wars want you to be able to create the ultimate PvP character with little or no effort? If Signets of Capture did not cost skill points, players wouldn't need to play the game; they'd simply need to run around and capture skills. Why would ArenaNet want that? The game designers have said time and time again they do what they can to remove "grinds" and tedium from gameplay. Why would they implement a system that rewards players who choose to go out and capture 750 skills? Doesn't it seem like they might want to *not* do that?

So you asked a question: Why do Signets of Capture cost skill points. That question has been answered multiple times. If you aren't satisfied by the answers, so be it. Needless to say you aren't the head of game development at ArenaNet, and whomever is has seen fit that Signets of Capture cost a skill point. Perhaps it's time to close this thread?

Shadow_Avenger · Jun 16, 2005, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Alas Phaedrus it seems we will agree to disagree. As you seem to think that,

A, capturing 750 skill, would take sixty seconds. Perhaps in a time machine.

B, There is no ultimate PvP build, but you seem to beleive there is.

C, Alas the current system actually leads to grind, and you see only negatives rather than positives.

D, I may not be a developer, but neither are you, but it is through post such as these that GW's actually improves, so to knock a contructive thread is rather silly to say the least. I would even say that it is due to threads like this that are appearing on GW Forums across the board which are actually leading to changes. Some of the actual points raised within this very thread have been read by the developers and have been addressed in the latest Patch and I would hope that this also happens in the future.

Mystical · Jun 16, 2005, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Phaedrus, if you look just a couple posts ahead of yours you'll notice this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow_Avenger

If you would open up your views, you would realise it is more than possible to run both, you simply cannot capture all skills using SoC there are not enough Boss type creatures to cover the entire skill base, so trainers would still be of use and an important part of the game.

Granamyr · Jun 16, 2005, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quote:

If Signets of Capture did not cost skill points, players wouldn't need to play the game; they'd simply need to run around and capture skills.

So going into explorable areas, fighting your way to the boss and capturing about one useful skill at a time is not "playing the game"? But doing all that PLUS grinding for xp is "playing the game"? Please explain.

Quote:

Making things easier doesn't make them more interesting.

Sure it does.
1. Rune Trader makes it easier to get runes for your player.

Result: People are able to make their builds more interesting through increased attribute points, sometimes at the expense of health.

2. Rare item drop rates go up making it easier to get better weapons/items.

Result: More trade, more weapon customizing, more experimentation with item/weapon combinations

3. Signet of Capture doesn't cost a skill point

Result: Instead of just buying a skill, people go out and explore and try to capture skills from bosses, people experiment with skills they wouldn't otherwise have wasted a skill point on translating to more diverse builds. People avoid doing a part of the game the majority of the community finds tedious.

Quote:

Why do you have a problem with spending 1 skill point to buy SoC to capture an elite skill?

I don't have a problem paying a skill point to capture an elite skill. I said this before and although it's not what I want, it's a compromise I'm willing to accept. I do have a problem paying a skill point to capture a normal skill for many reasons....consistency being foremost.

If a quest can reward you with a skill (sans skillpoint) then doing the exact same thing with a SoC should yield the exact same result. Additionally, I pay skill points to be taught a skill that I never forget. Everyone agrees that the Signet of Capture is a skill, so I should never forget how to capture a skill once I pay a skill trainer to teach me. That said, another acceptable compromise would be only being charged once for the SoC and, quoth the raven, nevermore!

Quote:

If there's no limit to capturing or using skills people will become terminally bored with Guild Wars far more quickly.

The argument of burnout assumes something that is rather implausible -- namely that everyone can instantly capture all the skills in the game. If someone wanted to make this their goal, it's a game in and of itself and should be rewarded based on the amount of time it would take. You know as well as I do how much effort goes into the actual process of capturing skills so don't argue that removing the SoC skill point requirement equates to Unlock All Skills instantly. We both know that isn't the case.

Quote:

However, if you look at every bright side to making SOC's free, then you'd have to note every nook and cranny of the side-effects it may cause

What do you think I started this thread for? How many times have I asked for someone to demonstrate the harm to the game or community? The only answer I've heard is "it will cause burnout". Obviously I think that's not going to happen along with the scores of other doomsday prophesies anytime someone suggests decreasing the grind.

Quote:

Perhaps it's time to close this thread?

Ahh, the third stifler. Honestly, I thought you'd be above this but once again, someone attempts to stifle discussion instead of bowing out gracefully themself. Must be a disease. Get well soon buddy.

codemonkey · Jun 16, 2005, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Granamyr

So going into explorable areas, fighting your way to the boss and capturing about one useful skill at a time is not "playing the game"? But doing all that PLUS grinding for xp is "playing the game"? Please explain.

Sure it does.
1. Rune Trader makes it easier to get runes for your player.

Result: People are able to make their builds more interesting through increased attribute points, sometimes at the expense of health.

2. Rare item drop rates go up making it easier to get better weapons/items.

Result: More trade, more weapon customizing, more experimentation with item/weapon combinations

3. Signet of Capture doesn't cost a skill point

Result: Instead of just buying a skill, people go out and explore and try to capture skills from bosses, people experiment with skills they wouldn't otherwise have wasted a skill point on translating to more diverse builds. People avoid doing a part of the game the majority of the community finds tedious.

I don't have a problem paying a skill point to capture an elite skill. I said this before and although it's not what I want, it's a compromise I'm willing to accept. I do have a problem paying a skill point to capture a normal skill for many reasons....consistency being foremost.

If a quest can reward you with a skill (sans skillpoint) then doing the exact same thing with a SoC should yield the exact same result. Additionally, I pay skill points to be taught a skill that I never forget. Everyone agrees that the Signet of Capture is a skill, so I should never forget how to capture a skill once I pay a skill trainer to teach me. That said, another acceptable compromise would be only being charged once for the SoC and, quoth the raven, nevermore!

The argument of burnout assumes something that is rather implausible -- namely that everyone can instantly capture all the skills in the game. If someone wanted to make this their goal, it's a game in and of itself and should be rewarded based on the amount of time it would take. You know as well as I do how much effort goes into the actual process of capturing skills so don't argue that removing the SoC skill point requirement equates to Unlock All Skills instantly. We both know that isn't the case.

What do you think I started this thread for? How many times have I asked for someone to demonstrate the harm to the game or community? The only answer I've heard is "it will cause burnout". Obviously I think that's not going to happen along with the scores of other doomsday prophesies anytime someone suggests decreasing the grind.

Ahh, the third stifler. Honestly, I thought you'd be above this but once again, someone attempts to stifle discussion instead of bowing out gracefully themself. Must be a disease. Get well soon buddy.

Thanks for being clear on the points. I was a big fan of NOT removing skill points for the signets, but you make it sound pretty fair. However the "not consistent" isn't really 100% accurate is it? I mean, currently it works both ways...certain skills are rewarded or purchased with skill points. For example, I can purchase the signet of rez. when I get to the searing and didn't have a buddy to adventure with in pre-searing. So purchasing signets of capture is indeed consistent with that. Its just not consistent with rewarded skills.

I'm a believe that nothing that has been released as an update has made the game any easier, just different. People often confuse "easy" with "different" it seems. Paying for a rune isn't really "easier" then finding a rune... its just different. A person may have a better chance of finding a rune then they do of being able to afford one in many cases. Does it make it easier? No, just different.

Humans have a problem with change. Often times change is good, especially if its dirty underwear.

CodeMonkey

hydrak · Jun 16, 2005, 05:51 PM // 17:51

SoC is not a skill. It can be considered as a blank page in your spell/skill book. Once you've inscribed a skill on this blank page, you'll need a new blank page for another skill.

codemonkey · Jun 16, 2005, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by hydrak

SoC is not a skill. It can be considered as a blank page in your spell/skill book. Once you've inscribed a skill on this blank page, you'll need a new blank page for another skill.

Sure it is, its a skill that allows you to capture another skill and instantly replace it.

If it appears in your _skill bar_, it must be a skill yes? Everything else in my skill bar seems to be a skill.

Or, if you wish, once you capture something then it takes a skill point, but in that case now you could have signets of capture but you can't capture anything because you bought it, and then later found you had 0 skill points to use... that would make me more upset then spending that skill point initially on the signet of capture.

CodeMonkey

Granamyr · Jun 16, 2005, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

"not consistent" isn't really 100% accurate is it? I mean, currently it works both ways...certain skills are rewarded or purchased with skill points.

Buying skills vs doing skill quests are two rather different processes that don't need to be consistent. A quest forces you to go out and do something be it find an item/body, kill a boss or group with one other person. Buying a skill doesn't require you to do anything except have the gold and the skill point....which I'm fine with.

Buying the skill, Signet of Capture however isn't consistent with either scenario. It isn't consistent with buying any other skill because you instantly forget the skill once you use it. It isn't consistent with skill quests because you're charged a skill point for doing the exact same thing as many quests force you to do...sometimes more.

Quote:

Humans have a problem with change. Often times change is good, especially if its dirty underwear.

Well put. I'm afraid of change as much as the next guy....I put off getting the latest update for fear that even more areas would be nerfed. Had I accepted it, that superior vigor rune I ID'd would have salvaged into something better than 2 leather squares. Mine was a valid fear though based on prior updates.....what is the fear of making SoC's skill-point free?

hydrak · Jun 16, 2005, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by codemonkey

Sure it is, its a skill that allows you to capture another skill and instantly replace it.

If it appears in your _skill bar_, it must be a skill yes? Everything else in my skill bar seems to be a skill.

Or, if you wish, once you capture something then it takes a skill point, but in that case now you could have signets of capture but you can't capture anything because you bought it, and then later found you had 0 skill points to use... that would make me more upset then spending that skill point initially on the signet of capture.

CodeMonkey

All "skills", once you've learned them, they permanently stay. Are you getting the same thing with SoC?

codemonkey · Jun 16, 2005, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Granamyr

Well put. I'm afraid of change as much as the next guy....I put off getting the latest update for fear that even more areas would be nerfed. Had I accepted it, that superior vigor rune I ID'd would have salvaged into something better than 2 leather squares. Mine was a valid fear though based on prior updates.....what is the fear of making SoC's skill-point free?

First fear: bugs. The initial attempt to stop people from farming caused other bugs. Why fix something that's not broken?

Game Dynamics:

Changing a feature that has something to do what the skill point system can, and may alter how players do things. And the game was _tested_ with skill points in these areas, and changing that may impact other things in the game. For example, it might make people hold back buying skills from skill trainers because they can go hunt for them later. That means that there is a slight influx of gold in the hands of PC's because they're not burning it on skills. Is that a problem? Don't know yet, but it can impact how ANET expects the game balances to play out.

Secondly, holding out on skills may or may not impact the difficulty of areas. You may get "pwned' more in missions because you refuse to pay for a few key skills because ya know you can get them for free later.

Thirdly, there can be a dramatic influx in skill point hoarding, now folks may be a higher level and have 50 free skill points because they got all the rest for free using SoC's. Now when ANET releases new areas, and updates they have to be concerned with skills. As of now people may get low on skill points, so they will hold back for "just the best" skills (in their opinion anyway), and adding 5 new skills in a future release goes from an ascended character picking 1 of 5 because they have a few points, to just sucking up all 5 since they've got 50+ points to burn on it. Now you end up with folks going "only 5 new skills in the new release? What gives" instead of "wow, those 5 new skills look awesome, I took <blah> and <blah> because they looked to be the best for my character."

Does any of the game dynamics change for better or for worse? Well the easiest way to tell is to alter them in a patch and wait for the bitch/moan/complain threads to start up. I am not sure either way, but I'm trying to get the point across that "it won't change anything" is the attitude of those that have never had input in game design mechanics, or had to write a product specification for something. You do not realize what a small change can do to a product with potentially hundreds of thousands of customers until you do the "do dilligence" of sitting down and figuring out all aspects upon which the skills system touches.

CodeMonkey

Shadow_Avenger · Jun 16, 2005, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by codemonkey

First fear: bugs. The initial attempt to stop people from farming caused other bugs. Why fix something that's not broken?

Game Dynamics:

Changing a feature that has something to do what the skill point system can, and may alter how players do things. And the game was _tested_ with skill points in these areas, and changing that may impact other things in the game. For example, it might make people hold back buying skills from skill trainers because they can go hunt for them later. That means that there is a slight influx of gold in the hands of PC's because they're not burning it on skills. Is that a problem? Don't know yet, but it can impact how ANET expects the game balances to play out.

Secondly, holding out on skills may or may not impact the difficulty of areas. You may get "pwned' more in missions because you refuse to pay for a few key skills because ya know you can get them for free later.

Thirdly, there can be a dramatic influx in skill point hoarding, now folks may be a higher level and have 50 free skill points because they got all the rest for free using SoC's. Now when ANET releases new areas, and updates they have to be concerned with skills. As of now people may get low on skill points, so they will hold back for "just the best" skills (in their opinion anyway), and adding 5 new skills in a future release goes from an ascended character picking 1 of 5 because they have a few points, to just sucking up all 5 since they've got 50+ points to burn on it. Now you end up with folks going "only 5 new skills in the new release? What gives" instead of "wow, those 5 new skills look awesome, I took <blah> and <blah> because they looked to be the best for my character."

Does any of the game dynamics change for better or for worse? Well the easiest way to tell is to alter them in a patch and wait for the bitch/moan/complain threads to start up. I am not sure either way, but I'm trying to get the point across that "it won't change anything" is the attitude of those that have never had input in game design mechanics, or had to write a product specification for something. You do not realize what a small change can do to a product with potentially hundreds of thousands of customers until you do the "do dilligence" of sitting down and figuring out all aspects upon which the skills system touches.

CodeMonkey

Point 1, very valid, in a industry that is renowned for breaking more than they fix, this is a possibility.

On the Game dynamic's front, I cant honestly see it making that great a difference, Some skills can be captured with SoC and some cant, But I do see your point. But on the other hand, with a cap of 200 points and the basic skills of each proffession being free, you still would not have enough points to unlock all skills, but you could unlock a good selection for different secondary classes with relative ease. For expansions they can easily increase the skill point cap which would be a more viable option then level increase.
TBH most players save there skill points after there first character / run through the game so it wouldn't have that great an impact.

On your second point, well thats the players choice and they do that anyway.

(answered points 1 and 3 above

)

They always look at the bitch / moan / praise threads after a patch.

The day after patch day, reps from A.net trawl all the Elite GW site's forums.

Phaedrus · Jun 16, 2005, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Shadow Avenger:

A, You're inferring this. I'm saying your proposal makes it faster to capture all skills rather than have to earn skill points for each subprofession.

B, Not so, you're putting words in my mouth. I said unlocking all skills on one PvE character gives you access to a potentially more powerful PvP character. Expediting this process seems counter to the goals of a game company who wants people to spend time in their game and wants longevity in the market.

C, Saying something doesn't make it so. Playing the game in and of itself is a grind. Your proposal only offers the chance to grind a different way. You'll still have to earn exp, you'll still have to earn gold. You'll still have to find items, and the only "change" I can perceive is a new kind of leech being added to an already-infested community.

D. Right, but this thread is deceptive. It didn't so much offer a position as ask people to attack it. People have. Those who are in favor of the "proposal", which is really just a question, aren't defending their position, they're simply attacking the opposing position.

HH-

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's a boss for every "build" of creature, yes? So every ability any npc uses can be captured. While this may not encompass all 750 skills, this is also true questing for non-elites. As more content is added, we are seeing more skill quests. Does it not stand to reason we will see more varied npcs?

Granamyr:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Granamyr

So going into explorable areas, fighting your way to the boss and capturing about one useful skill at a time is not "playing the game"? But doing all that PLUS grinding for xp is "playing the game"? Please explain.

If you take a bar with seven signets of capture and resurrect, are you playing? If your guildies are power-dragging you to capture skills, are you playing? Right now it's a part of the game to get a group together to go skill-hunting. This assumes you're going to go out and capture one, two skills max before you turn back to switch out skills. If you start to encourage free-range capping what stops players from taking four signets? Six? Not only will you have professional groups going out to save themselves skill points so they can spend the least number of points on purchasing skills they may not be able to cap, but you'll also see a dramatic increase in the number of community members people complain about. We already have the guy who disconnects after capping one skill. Now you'll have the guy who doesn't even help fight--he just caps seven skills (which he may not even be able to use effectively to aid the party) then leaves. You can't weed him out pre-emptively. You can't examine his skill bar before you enter a mission. If you want a reason not to do it, there's one. I have yet to see either you or Shadow Avenger defend this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Granamyr

Sure it does.
1. Rune Trader makes it easier to get runes for your player.

Result: People are able to make their builds more interesting through increased attribute points, sometimes at the expense of health.

2. Rare item drop rates go up making it easier to get better weapons/items.

Result: More trade, more weapon customizing, more experimentation with item/weapon combinations

3. Signet of Capture doesn't cost a skill point

Result: Instead of just buying a skill, people go out and explore and try to capture skills from bosses, people experiment with skills they wouldn't otherwise have wasted a skill point on translating to more diverse builds. People avoid doing a part of the game the majority of the community finds tedious.

1. This has also opened the door for the 300-hp level 20 elementalist who has three superior runes on because he can afford them. That works in the Underworld, I promise.

2. In the sort term, yes. In the long-term the market is flooded and items will need to be re-balanced, otherwise everyone will have a set of "godly" weapons and new players will be outclassed by being poor and having to spend months "grinding" to catch up.

3. See above. Some players will continue to use Signets of Capture in a thoughtful and group-friendly manner. Others will not. The only way I can think of to combat the problem of these players is to limit the number of signets to one per bar...which means more grinding, which defeats the purpose of your proposal. So, how do you combat that? Why should a feature be implemented that is so obviously abusable and will only cause more frustration in an already-frustrated playerbase?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Granamyr

I don't have a problem paying a skill point to capture an elite skill. I said this before and although it's not what I want, it's a compromise I'm willing to accept. I do have a problem paying a skill point to capture a normal skill for many reasons....consistency being foremost.

If a quest can reward you with a skill (sans skillpoint) then doing the exact same thing with a SoC should yield the exact same result. Additionally, I pay skill points to be taught a skill that I never forget. Everyone agrees that the Signet of Capture is a skill, so I should never forget how to capture a skill once I pay a skill trainer to teach me. That said, another acceptable compromise would be only being charged once for the SoC and, quoth the raven, nevermore!

Signet of Capture isn't Inspired Hex/Enchantment. It isn't Arcane Thievery. It is permanently replaced. If you want to use those abilities you can stock them and save yourself the hassle of worrying about signets of capture.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Granamyr

The argument of burnout assumes something that is rather implausible -- namely that everyone can instantly capture all the skills in the game. If someone wanted to make this their goal, it's a game in and of itself and should be rewarded based on the amount of time it would take. You know as well as I do how much effort goes into the actual process of capturing skills so don't argue that removing the SoC skill point requirement equates to Unlock All Skills instantly. We both know that isn't the case.

In this you are correct, but again...see problem with "pro" skill-cappers. That is my fundamental problem with this system: the player who *does* want to capture all skills in the game and isn't advertising that fact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Granamyr

What do you think I started this thread for? How many times have I asked for someone to demonstrate the harm to the game or community? The only answer I've heard is "it will cause burnout"

I thought I have, but I still have yet to see it addressed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Granamyr

Honestly, I thought you'd be above this but once again, someone attempts to stifle discussion instead of bowing out gracefully themself

You're on fire, says the flame-baiter. I'm all for argument and discussion, but that's not what this thread has evolved into. I've seen many people answer the original question *and* propose side-effects more fleshed-out than "burnout imminent, evacuate game!" I wonder why you haven't? I suggested closing the thread because I suspect you (and others) don't want to see those points, which is why you've so studiously not seen them as of yet.

[ ]

Shadow_Avenger · Jun 16, 2005, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Phaedrus you are the one who goads flames, others Reply.
I have tried to avoid flames, and if my answers are sharp at times, they are in response to similarly posts.
Your posts, Leech infested, etc they only make you look like a Elitest. Infact the majority of your post come across like this, as though its your game and everyone else is stupid or wrong. I agree with you on some of your posts, but the way you post them does not always inspire a positive response.
Code Monkey post his opinions and does not offend or cause flames. Occationally someone trys to get clever about his posts, but he deals with it well.
We all post ' angry' at times, and to be honest it is better not to post when angry as it often makes the poster look as fool and cause anger in others and thats how posts turn bad.
Alas Phaedrus it seems we will agree to disagree.
This is not ment as a personal insult, but hopefully constructive critism.

codemonkey · Jun 16, 2005, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow_Avenger

Point 1, very valid, in a industry that is renowned for breaking more than they fix, this is a possibility.

On the Game dynamic's front, I cant honestly see it making that great a difference, Some skills can be captured with SoC and some cant, But I do see your point. But on the other hand, with a cap of 200 points and the basic skills of each proffession being free, you still would not have enough points to unlock all skills, but you could unlock a good selection for different secondary classes with relative ease. For expansions they can easily increase the skill point cap which would be a more viable option then level increase.
TBH most players save there skill points after there first character / run through the game so it wouldn't have that great an impact.

On your second point, well thats the players choice and they do that anyway.

(answered points 1 and 3 above

)

They always look at the bitch / moan / praise threads after a patch.

The day after patch day, reps from A.net trawl all the Elite GW site's forums.

I see where your coming from, I'm just not 100% convinced that the change will come without some ramifications (besides bugs). I'm a software developer and I've seen many sales engineering requests cross my desk that are "inventive" but there is always risk associated with them outside of simply bugs. I really don't know if it would effect game dynamics by much, as it would require some type of experiementation or closed door testing to be sure.

It might just be that I'm a fan of keeping limitations or costs on such things to make them seem more "valuable" for when your low on them. I.e. if you only have x number of points, and x+20 number of options it forces you to make more open minded decisions and make those skills seem or valuable then just buying 'em all up and calling it good.

But, to the point, I cannot say ye or nea on the risk vs. reward. I just know that the "it won't effect anything" type of response is just causing bad karma for when they find out "oops, I was wrong" later

CodeMonkey

Phaedrus · Jun 17, 2005, 12:06 AM // 00:06

I am somewhat of an elitist. I'll be clear about that.

I did my time helping people learn the game. I've taught dozens of people how to do missions, bonuss, how to stack effective builds for their professions. I've taught people strategies for winning PvP, how to get the most out of bad groups, and even taught monks I shouldn't have how to manage their energy. I've enjoyed doing so, but I do so only when I want to.

I don't owe it to any player to hold his hand through the game. I don't owe it to any player to stroke his ego over an ersatz performance. I don't owe it to any player to help him round out his skill collection, tell him how to use his skills, or tell him how to work his class.

On the other hand, I do owe it to every player not to ruin the game for them. I owe it to every player to be respectful of his or her gaming experience, and I strive for that. As I stated in another thread, I never abuse my role as a healer. If I have a personality conflict with someone in the group I'll do my best to just let it go.

I can't apologize for being elitist in that way. I also can't apologize for calling players who join missions to cap from a boss and then abandon "leeches". They exist. They piss players off. They're a dredge on the Guild Wars community. I am a horrible a person for identifying them, but I can't help that.

Now don't get me wrong--I get where you're coming from: removing the need to run exp for skill points makes the game more immediately fun/accessible/whatever. I don't want the game to be fast, nor do I want it to be easy. I want it to take time. If you want to "finish" a character to completion, why should that take a week or two? I want ArenaNet to stay in business. I want to play Guild Wars for a very long time. I don't want them to install systems and policies that speed everyone to the end where stagnation and boredom occur.

What I owe most to all players is to offer more than a short-sighted "wouldn't it be neat-o if we had mounts and could fly and didn't need skill points and could unlock all our Barbie clothes without any effort" opinion. Sure new classes would be nice, but we don't need them now. Let them take some time and work without sweeping major changes. As for signets of capture not costing skill points...it offers just as many problems as it seemingly solves. I still don't see any solutions to what would happen should that system be implemented.

Responses don't have to be positive to be informative. I take offense when people move from civil discourse to snarky bitch-fest whether or not they aimed it at me. If people want to be coy and catty, fine. But please, don't say condescension is unattractive after stooping to it yourself.

[ ]

Red Locust · Jun 17, 2005, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Granamyr, you have no argument here. The SoC system makes perfect sense. You can either go capture a skill by using the SoC at the expense of 1 skill point and some gold, or you can buy it at the skill trainer for 1 skill point and a lot more gold with a huge ramp up in cost. Either way, you're getting a new skill, and either way, you're gonna need to spend a skill point. All this crap about "but if im buying an SoC, why doesn't it stay on my skill bar after I use it" is nonsense. You buy a skill (in this case the SoC), and end up with a skill (in this case a skill of your choice). More work at the expense of a lower price, makes perfect sense. No argument at all.

Sure, I don't like the skill point system, and I wish we could get an UAS button, but this proposition of making the SoC cost zero skill points is garbage. I'm gonna have to go through every mission and every boss again, just to capture the rest of my skills. And make it cost 5 plat? It's probably more time-efficient to just do FoW/UW missions and get skill points than it is to find a good farming spot, find a way to overcome all the crap arenanet has been placing to fend off farmers, and sell that farmed stuff for gold. If you're gonna make the SoC cost no skill points, then just get rid of skill points for good. Else, you're trading one boring activity with an even more mind-numbingly boring activity.

Shadow_Avenger · Jun 17, 2005, 07:29 AM // 07:29

Increase the Skill point Cap to 350 or 400.
Have every skill captured, learned from a trader, or gained through a quest cost a skill point.
Now, Have SoC work the same way as questing for skills. They don't require you to have a spare skill point, but actually add to your total skill points used.
Why , because you are in effect questing to capture skills, the only difference is that you don't get a NPC telling you to KIll x boss and rewarding skills, you are rewarded skills for the kill using SoC.

Trainers require you to have a skill point as the current system. Simply because it is impossible to capture all skills from Boss's as there isn't enough of them.

Currently Skills that you gain through questing do not add to you skill points, only skills purchased or gained through SoC.

Basically change it so that all skills so they used up skill points.
With trainers using up earned skill points, and SoC/Questing ADDING to your total skillpoints used.
This is the basic premise and how it could work behind this thread.
This is conjunction with skillpoint refunds for skills gained through quests after a player has paid for them at a trainer earlier would be ideal.

This is a basic summary about how it could be implemented with least impact on the game not a sould or shouldn't it post.

codemonkey · Jun 17, 2005, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow_Avenger

Increase the Skill point Cap to 350 or 400.
Have every skill captured, learned from a trader, or gained through a quest cost a skill point.
Now, Have SoC work the same way as questing for skills. They don't require you to have a spare skill point, but actually add to your total skill points used.
Why , because you are in effect questing to capture skills, the only difference is that you don't get a NPC telling you to KIll x boss and rewarding skills, you are rewarded skills for the kill using SoC.

Trainers require you to have a skill point as the current system. Simply because it is impossible to capture all skills from Boss's as there isn't enough of them.

Currently Skills that you gain through questing do not add to you skill points, only skills purchased or gained through SoC.

Basically change it so that all skills so they used up skill points.
With trainers using up earned skill points, and SoC/Questing ADDING to your total skillpoints used.
This is the basic premise and how it could work behind this thread.
This is conjunction with skillpoint refunds for skills gained through quests after a player has paid for them at a trainer earlier would be ideal.

This is a basic summary about how it could be implemented with least impact on the game not a sould or shouldn't it post.

If you were to go that route then I'd say that after you complete a quest rather then being given two skills and burn two skill points the NPC should prompt you to select a skill or skills like the skill trainer or SoC does today. That way you can select ones you want (or come back later) without being forced to burn skill points on skills you may not want (but you did indeed want the XP for the quest).

Not agreeing with the idea, just refining it a little with specifics

CodeMonkey

Red Locust · Jun 17, 2005, 04:24 PM // 16:24

That creates even more grind. Now, not only am I gonna have to go through every mission, but also every explorable area in order to look for bosses and skills. Not to mention everyone will be carrying 1 or 2 SoCs on their skillbar at all times. This isn't a great solution to the skill point system.